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Ep #281: Interdependence with Billey Albina

Feminist Wellness with Victoria Albina | Interdependence with Billey Albina

I’m here today on this 4th of July, not to talk about independence but rather of interdependence. This is a vital topic for us to discuss here on the podcast, and I’m joined by my favorite person in the whole world, Billey Albina.

The bedrock of interdependence is mutuality and reciprocity, which when put together, allows us to soar and be the fullest expressions of ourselves. Coming back to a truly embodied sense of self has been one of the greatest gifts I’ve experienced in our relationship, so, who better to dive into the importance of cultivating interdependence with than my wife, Billey?

Join us on this episode as Billey and I explore the differences between codependence and interdependence, and our advice for creating mutuality and reciprocity in your relationships. We’re touching on the importance of setting boundaries and limits, how resentment erodes trust, and how to identify if you’re living in codependence or interdependence.

If you’re enjoying the Feminist Wellness podcast, please head on over to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen and follow, rate, and review to make it more discoverable to others!


What You’ll Learn:

The difference between codependence and interdependence.

Why we don’t trust ourselves or other people in codependence.

How Billey and I celebrate each other for setting boundaries and limits.

The insidious nature of resentment.

How to identify if you’re living in codependence versus interdependence.

The power of practicing regulating your nervous system often.

Our tips for cultivating mutuality and reciprocity.

Listen to the Full Episode:

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Ep #15: Choosing Suffering

Full Episode Transcript:

This is Feminist Wellness, and I’m your host, Nurse Practitioner, Functional Medicine expert, and life coach Victoria:  Albina. I’ll show you how to get unstuck, drop the anxiety, perfectionism, and codependency so you can live from your beautiful heart. Welcome, my love, let’s get started.

Hello, hello, my love. I hope this finds you doing so well. I am here today, on this Fourth of July, to talk not of independence, but rather of interdependence. And I am joined today, by my favorite person on this entire planet. Hi, Billey.

Billey Albina: Hi.

Victoria Albina: I love it. I look at you and just my whole body smiles. It's just so amazing.

Billey: It's so nice to be back here.

Victoria: Yeah, it is. It’s really fun. We’ve got a lot to talk about. Yeah. So, while it seems strange that someone might not know who you are, would you be so kind as to introduce yourself to the good people?

Billey: Yes, of course. So my name is Billey Albina. I use she/her pronouns. I am your wonderful butch wife, and I'm so happy to be your wife. I am currently enrolled to become a social worker at the University of Toronto School of Social Work. I just retired from 13 years as a librarian and I'm in this transition, and it's so exciting. It's so, so exciting. And I think it's like really exemplary of our interdependence, because I never thought I would ever be able to do this. And here I am, finally able to do it.

Victoria: It’s so exciting. And I haven't announced on the show that we are moving, but what better time? We are moving, for the next two years. We'll see what life brings to Toronto, Canada.

Billey: That's right.

Victoria: It's really exciting.

Billey: Yeah, it's fun to announce that on Independence Day that we're going to Canada.

Victoria: I love that. Yeah. Going back to the Commonwealth, huh?

Billey: That’s right, yeah. I’ve got to practice my Queen wave.

Victoria: I mean, do you really into practice? I feel like you're pretty good at it.

Billey: I am a lotus queen. I am a queen.

Victoria: That's Billey’s buddhist name. It means “Lotus Queen”.

Billey: It does. My buddhist name is Pema Wangmo, which means Lotus Queen. I'm quite happy with that.

Victoria: It's a good one. And you were a drag king for many years.

Billey: Oh, my goodness, for so long.

Victoria: So long. You've got all the royalty just covered.

Billey: That's right. Yeah. Back in my early 20s I was a little drag king. Oh, my goodness. It feels like ages ago.

Victoria: I mean, it was. But also… I called our insurance today to find out if progressive glasses were covered, and the guy legit laughed at me. He's like, “Are the letters too small?” And I was like, “You know what? They are.”

Billey: And they keep getting smaller every year.

Victoria: Every year. What's up with that? Can someone explain that? Why do the letters… Who is in charge of font size for the entire planet? Because I'd like to have a word with them. I'd like to have a word, and that word is “Stop. Just stop it. Stop making it smaller.” You know what I mean?

Billey: So, are they covered? They're not covered?

Victoria: No, they're covered, which is really exciting.

Billey: It is exciting.

Victoria: Yeah. So, let's hurry up and get me some new glasses. Let's go Monday.

Billey: Okay. Speaking of interdependence…

Victoria: There is a fine line… check this segue out… between interdependence and codependence. And I think that would be a really fun, and of course an important thing for us to discuss, to talk about here on Feminist Wellness. What do you think?

Billey: I think that's why we're here today.

Victoria: Wow, that's really cosmic and deep, “It's why we're here today.” Yeah, so do you want to go first? You want me to go first? Take stab at that delineation.

Billey: Between interdependence and codependence?

Victoria: Yeah.

Billey: I'll take a stab at it.

Victoria: Ooh, go forth.

Billey: Codependence, as you talk about, is that emotional outsourcing, right? Where my happiness, my feelings are really dependent on another person, right? I'm looking to another person for my sense of self-worth, for my sense of belonging, attachment. I'm looking outward, really. I'm not knowing what I want, what I need, and I'm really focused on the other. It's that relationship with the other where I lose my sense of self.

Whereas interdependence, and we've talked about this, that you know yourself so well, and you trust yourself so deeply, that you can rely on another person. Right? That you have that trust of yourself so deeply that you can trust another person to show up, to be there, to help, and to tell you their limits.

We talk about ‘I love your no, because I can then trust your yes,’ right?

Victoria: Yeah, that's huge.

Billey: Or is it the other way around? I trust you’re right, yes, so I know your no… I don't know.

Victoria: I mean, it's both. I think it's definitely both. Yeah, just trusting that someone's in honest relationship, not just right relationship. So, if anyone's going to define that, my Buddhist, it's you. I've actually been meaning to do a show about right relationship for so long.

Maybe we can tease the concept here. Yeah, I think what's really important… We're going to put a little pin in that… trusting yourself enough to trust someone else. Meaning… Let's play that out. Why would you not go to there from a codependent mindset? Why wouldn't you trust someone else? Does that make English? Why is the inverse true?

I think what I heard, what you said sort of pointed towards it. From our codependent thinking we have the habit of losing ourselves in other. And all of a sudden, “Sure, I like death metal, if you do. Sure, I love camping, if you do. Sure, I love being a quiet person, because you do. You like that.” Right? We shapeshift, we chameleon, we become someone else, in subtle or not subtle ways.

We've talked about how we've both done that in the past, right? And so, when we trust ourselves to stay true to ourselves, the first thing that comes to mind… I'm sure we can come up with 75 things… is, “I'm not going to lose myself in you. I'm going to say no, and I'm going to say yes. And I'm going to say, ‘Hey, that hurt my feelings. Hey, I'm disappointed.’”

Okay, that's kind of the other part of it. One of the big barriers... Sorry, I'm getting excited. You know how I do when I talk about this stuff.

Billey: No, I love it.

Victoria: One of the barriers to setting boundaries is reneging, right? It's like, “Oh, okay, don't worry about it. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. Don't worry about it.” We get a little sympathetic, slam into dorsal, and then, “It's fine. It's fine. No, no, no, I didn't mean that. You can wear muddy shoes on my white couch. You can walk on the couch, that's fine.”

Billey: “And walk all over me in the process.”

Victoria: Yeah, sure. And so, when we trust ourselves, we can trust someone else. Because we know, trust, believe, and have experience, that we will set boundaries and we will keep them. We will say, “No, thank you. No, no, we're not doing that.” And a boundary… We've talked about this here before, but not in a long time... A boundary is when you say your limits, what you are available for and what you aren't.

And what turns it into a boundary, from a request, is a consequence. Right? So, “If you wear your muddy shoes on my couch, I'm going to ask you to leave my house and to pay the cleaning bill.” It's this ridiculous example, but not really.

Billey: No. I mean, that's how you start to know your boundaries, right? By tapping into what is an obvious boundary.

Victoria: Yeah, that's such a good mechanism, right?

Billey: Yeah, I had the longest time understanding my boundaries. Because I was one of those people that was very much like, “Oh, no, it's fine. It's fine. It's totally okay. It's totally cool.” Then, when I started to get quiet, and I started to understand, I started to understand my boundaries, and they were just big ones. They were really big ones. Like, “Please, take your shoes off when you come into my house. I like that, please do that.”

And what's the consequence? You don't get to come into my house. So, it's starting with some of those big ones that you're able to then hone into the finer ones.

Victoria: Yeah, I like that. Does it sound true to your experience to say ‘to hone in on’ the less threatening one, the safer ones? Because that's a sort of established norm across the planet. “The world is gross, I don't like to mop, take your shoes off.” It can be a cultural thing.

Billey: Yeah. For me, it was like feeling into what it felt like to stand up for myself. So, if it's something as big as, “Hey, please take your shoes off. Please wear a mask when you come into my house,” how does that feel when I stand up for myself in that way?

And then, in other situations where I'm able to tap into those more nuanced boundaries, I can feel that same sensation and understand that that is a boundary for me. When something is either I need to state that it's a boundary, or I need to recognize that it's a boundary, I can feel that in my body.

Victoria: Right. Where do you feel it in your body?

Billey: I feel it in my gut and my chest. What does it feel like? I mean, it feels like there's a nervousness there, because I still struggle a little bit with standing up for what I need and what I want. So, there's a little fluttery energy, but also, there's this warmth and this radiation that I feel because I'm feeling true to myself. Yeah, yeah. When I'm being violated I feel it in my neck; really tense.

Victoria: Like a constriction?

Billey: Yeah, constriction.

Victoria: That makes sense, right? It’s so mammalian to shut those big centers down. We could also go into a little more of the witchy-woo, which is one of our favorite places to play, but the throat chakra. Is it neck or throat?

Billey: Throat. That's my understanding.

Victoria: I think this is an amazing segue. So, one of the things we do that is so helpful for me, is we praise the ever-loving crap out of each other for setting boundaries and limits. Would you tell the good people about parades?

Billey: Oh. Sometimes, when one of us does something that maybe we want to get a little boost for, or we do something that we're a little proud of, and we want a little encouragement, or we want a little recognition, we will ask for a parade. We’ll be like, “Hey, I did this thing; I did all the dishes. I've made this really beautiful, big meal. Hey, I called all these people today and got all these things done for us.”

Victoria: Or set a boundary, or said no to each other.

Billey: That's right. Or like, “Hey, not today. Not right now. Can I have a parade for that?” And so, then we’re just able to celebrate either an accomplishment or a boundary. And that's really kind of fun.

Victoria: It’s the best. I love when you set a boundary with me. I love when you tell me no.

Billey: It feels good to be able to say no. And that's been a really big difference from previous relationships. I never really felt like I could say no. Some of that, I'm going to say, was on me. Some of that was definitely on me. But it was also the folks I was with. It didn't feel safe to say no. I wasn't in a place that I could say no. And so, coupled with my codependent thinking, I wouldn't say no. I would just get walked all over. And stayed in the job I didn't want to be in for way too long.

Victoria: Yep. Yeah, we both rocked out, if I may be so bold, and please. But we both rocked out the self-abandonment cycle pretty hard. I mean, for me, and I'll let you obviously speak for you. But you said this. You said it didn't feel safe to say no. I mean, I'd get so negated and shut down and scolded. It would get so gaslighting kind of turned around on me, that after a while it just wasn't worth having an opinion. Right?

Billey: Yeah, I was really numbing out. I was numbing out and going with the flow too much. So, for me, it wasn't necessarily negation or shutting down, it was really numbing out, avoiding, and people pleasing.

Victoria: Yeah, there's such a difference. Because we're both fire signs. You're a Sag. I'm a Leo.

Billey: Whoo-hoo, power couple.

Victoria: We both have a Taurus Moon. So…

Billey: Watch out. I don't know what that means, but we're going to be stubborn and get things done together.

Victoria: Yes, we are Billiam. I'm the eldest immigrant daughter, and you are the youngest of four daughters. That birth order stuff, it's real, right?

Billey: It is real. I've always been attracted to the oldest daughter.

Victoria: I will curl my hair for all eldest daughters. I think it's just the yin and yang of it, right? It’s the balance; with you, youngest of four.

Billey: Would you say it's the interdependence?

Victoria: I actually would say that it's the interdependence. I was with one of my best friends, Marie… I will give Marie shout out though I know she doesn't listen to the show. Hello, Marie. I love you... and she kept doing vocal fry hard all weekend. Man, it gets in your head. It gets in your head. It's hard to escape.

Billey: What's that you put chips in it when you eat it?

Victoria: Diiiiiiiip.

Billey: Speaking of seeing your friend Marie this weekend, we're in two different locations.

Victoria: Oh, we are! This is different, yeah.

Billey: I’m here in southwestern Pennsylvania. I've been taking care of my parents. I miss you. I've been away from you for a week. It's also why it looks like Laura Ashley exploded behind me. This entire house it was built in 1982, and every surface is floral wallpaper.

Victoria: She's not over exaggerating. It's flowers on flowers on flowers on flowers. Even in there, the wallpaper, but look at the light fixture. It's a different flower pattern. Kind of amazing.

Billey: Yeah, my mom loves her florals. I'm just happy to be here. I have two older sisters who take care of my parents, Alisa and Heather. They're fans of the show, so I want to give them a shout out. And I'm just so grateful for the caregiving work they do. That work is so important and so valued, and so unseen in this culture. I'm just so grateful for them.

So, I'm glad I can be here for a little bit of time and help relieve them a little bit. It's just a pleasure, always, to come to Pennsylvania and spend some time with my parents. But where are you, my love?

Victoria: I'm in Brooklyn. I'm in Brooklyn, New York City where they paint murals of Biggie. Every time I say “Brooklyn”, my brain starts singing that. But it also frequently goes “Chiquita, Chiquita.” ADHD, it's fun. I like my jukebox.

Billey: And mine just goes to, “Boots with the fur.” That’s just silliness.

Victoria: You know you're a millennial when...

Billey: That song turned 20 years old this year.

Victoria: Sweet cheese and wiz. Kurt Loder is like 900 years old. Loder, God. Yo, MTV Rocks, good times. Good times. Yeah. Alright, wait, where were we? The difference between codependent… I think that's a really important point. I'm going to drag us back.

Billey: Drag us back.

Victoria: How can you tell if you're in a codependent thinking, living, experiencing, versus interdependent? So, we talked about how interdependent has that ebb and flow, and has… Can I share the word we made up?

Billey: Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah.

Victoria: So, I always talk about how in interdependence we do a lot of consenting. We get a lot of consent around here, it's very important. Mutuality and reciprocity are the two sort of bedrock foundational things in interdependence, right? I am an autonomous animal, you are an autonomous animal. And we come together in mutual aid. Which is not pity, it's not rescuing, it's not saving, and it's not a hierarchical concept. Mutuality is inherently flat, right?

It is an even equal. “You are just as valid, valuable, capable, awesome as I am, and we meet each other when our hands are full,” metaphorically or physically. And then, reciprocity is the divine balance. It's not the tit-for-tat that is part and parcel of codependent thinking.

If I had a nickel for every time I've heard a client say, “Well, with all I've done for him…” And I've said it myself. I've said it with my ex. I’ve said it a million times. Because I was not getting reciprocity; I was getting taken advantage of.

And interdependence is when you show up to the best of your ability, capacity, and capability. You were talking about these two concepts one day, and said, “Yeah, it's like mutuocity.” It’s been my favorite… not a word now.

Billey: But it is a word. It's our word.

Victoria: It is a word. We're very postmodern, we invent words.

Billey: Yeah, mutuocity.

Victoria: Mutuocity. I think it's really great, because it just really sums up what we're talking about. What does mutuocity study look like for you on the daily? How do you know we're so deep in it?

Billey: I was talking about this a little bit with my sister. That I love doing the dishes… And I'm just going to say I love doing the dishes for you. I mean, I do the dishes because I know that you don't like to do them, and I don't mind doing them. It's the way that I can, on a daily basis, show up for you and just help our family. And it's a little thing to do the dishes, right?

But it also has this much bigger meaning, right? Because it shows that I care for you. It shows respect for you. It shows respect for our things. And it's just that mutual aid, right? Because you most probably made breakfast or maybe you cook dinner. I mean, we share cooking…

Victoria: It’s called “Kitchen Marxism”. One does the cooking and one does the dishes.

Billey: That's true. But I mean, even sometimes when I cook, I will just do the dishes too, because I don't mind. It’s that reciprocity. I know that when you say that you will do something, I trust it. I trust it deeply. And I still sometimes struggle. I'm still like, “Are you sure? Is it okay? Are you sure that you don't mind moving to Canada for me?” I'm learning deeply, “Okay.” It's a deeply okay. And you don't say what you don't mean.

Victoria: Which is such a huge thing. And that's the trusting each other's autonomy part. That we are actually in radical, meaning from the roots, radical, truthful, deep, profound honesty, and therefore in honest relationship. Because I don't say it if I don't mean it. Because I love you so much I refuse to ever resent you. And I refuse, I decline, thanks for the offer. Not interested, not available, right?

Billey: No. And I appreciate that. Because it starts eroding trust. It's just going to blow up.

Victoria: It is the quickest way to destroy a relationship.

Billey: Yeah, I agree.

Victoria: Yeah, it's insidious, the resentment. I think that brings us back to trust, right? So, I trust that if I share something honestly with you, and you're upset, I'm not going to then shoot the second arrow. And if you're like, “What's that?” It's Episode 6 or 10, or something; it's from about 400 years ago. It's a Buddhist concept, so it still holds. I'm not going to shoot the second or the third arrow. I'm not going to beat me up. I'm not going to be like, “Why was I honest?” I'm going to take care of me, and I'm going to trust you to have your feelings in a kind way.

Billey: Yeah, I think that's probably one of the most incredible things in our relationship. Having the room for our feelings, but knowing that each of us will take care of our feelings in a kind way. So, if I get upset, I go for a walk. I go sit on my cushion, my meditation cushion. I breathe, if I get activated in some way. Maybe I go exercise or do some Qigong or something like that, just to move that energy through me.

I know that we will take care of ourselves so that when we do have to have a challenging conversation, or we just need to just have some real talk, that it will be regulated, and/or that I'll be regulated, right? And hopefully, you will be too, and we'll meet each other on an even ground.

Victoria: I think there's something really important too, about knowing that the other one is going to show up in loving kindness, because we both do a loving kindness practice when somebody’s slammed to the ground. And I think it's really, really powerful for us both to practice regulating our nervous systems, on the regular, so that if you're really upset, for example…

Or me, but I'll just speak for myself and what I do… I can scan my body, check in with my nervous system, and if I have the capacity to regulate myself or the space… If my core self is okay and my inner children are chill… Where I want to go is, I can take care of you without leaving me.

Billey: Yeah, I mean, I've experienced it, right? In the last year, I've gotten some upsetting news or something happened, and I'm really emotional. I'm really upset. I'm really sad. And you have been my rock in so many ways. Helped me to sort of come back to my ground and come back to my center, without losing yourself.

You're not getting swept up in my drama or swept up in whatever is happening. You’re really just able to be there with me in kindness, in loving kindness and compassion, so that I'm able to work through the difficult emotions that I'm having. And it’s such a beautiful gift. You can speak for this, but I feel like I've been there for you as well.

Victoria: Of course, yeah, 100%. I wouldn't stick around if it was a one-way street. I've been there, done that. Not at all interested in just being other people's rock. It's the reciprocity. That's the mutuocity; that's the word I meant to use, ‘scuze me.

Billey: Yeah, mutuality and reciprocity. In Buddhism, we often talk about how compassion and wisdom are the two wings of the bird, and with them together, you fly, right? So, let's say, for interdependence, the two wings of the bird we have mutuality, and we have reciprocity. And together, we have mutuality, or we have interdependence, and that's how we can fly.

Victoria: That’s so beautiful. And the rock of your love allows me to soar and be the fullest expression of myself. Right?

Billey: Right. This is how I'm able to fulfill my dream to become a therapist and go to Toronto. Because I have the rock of you to kind of leap off of into this new venture. And I've never had this before.

Victoria: Right. I mean, we've both done a ton of work to leave old patterns behind; patterns of drama, patterns of caretaking and saving, and putting up with crap and settling.

Billey: And bad habits.

Victoria: And people who aren’t good for us.

Billey: Yeah, being able to see that. I think for me, for so long I wasn't able to see that I wasn't with people that were good for me, right? I settled so hard. I didn't know that I was worthy, or that I deserved better.

Victoria: And I didn't realize there was this underlying tape in my body that said, “If I started something…” Well, my dad said it all the time, “If you start it, you’ve got to finish it.” Finish what you start, right? I was in a pretty lousy relationship for a very long time and felt stuck in it.

It's so interesting, right? We both had such similar experiences in these long term relationships, but with a different story around it. If you put the facts side by each in a soap opera, they were very similar. The way both of our brains interpreted it were so wildly different in such interesting ways.

Billey: Yeah, yeah. I think it's a different manifestations of codependency. And that gets impacted by your family of origin, your birth order, your gender representation, sexuality, all kinds of things.

Victoria: What advice would you have, my darling Angel therapist-to-be, for folks who are like, “Wait, I don't have any of that mutual honesty in my life, and I want it. I'm neck deep in all the codependent mindset that you described at the beginning of the show.” What are some of the things? And they don't have to be in order of operation, but maybe you could talk about what helped you?

Billey: I mean, I'll be really honest. Dropping some bad addictive habits. I was a pretty heavy drinker a while ago, and the first thing I did was sober up. Having clarity, literally physical clarity, was a huge first step for me. So, sobering up was really huge.

And then, the next one was getting quiet. Getting quiet and just starting meditation, starting prayer. Returning to my spiritual sense of being. Returning to creativity. Returning to some creative outlet. For me, music playing was the big thing. Music, especially for me, is a very mindful activity, where it brings the presence through action, right?

So, we have to play notes with others; I play in a brass band. I play trumpet in a brass band. And for me, it's this beautiful presence with others where you're making art. But meditation, I think, for me, was perhaps the most important aspect of finding myself again. Because I got quiet, and I got centered. And when you sit in meditation…

I'm sure you've probably talked about this analogy on your podcast before, but we're living our lives all the time, and everything's mixed up, mixed up, mixed up, mixed up. You can describe it as like a snow globe, and all the little snow in the snow globe. But when you sit in meditation, and you just start to quiet your mind, that snow starts to settle.

And then, you start to see the clarity of who you are, what you are, and you start to hear that voice again. You start to reconnect with your knowing. You start to reconnect with your insight, your boundaries, your wants, your needs, your desires. You get to start to make decisions that move you in that direction. You can start making decisions kind of going where the water’s warm, right? Where it feels good.

Where does it feel good? And knowing what's good for you. Yeah, meditation has changed my life. If you have a spiritual path, getting on that path and finding community is really helpful. Understanding. And I'm going to sound really Buddhist, but getting quiet, you can start to understand the causes and conditions of your suffering, your relative suffering.

Because the relative suffering are the things that you can actually change. So, when you start to have the insight into the causes and conditions of your suffering, you can start to take action and make decisions to remove those causes and conditions, and relieve the suffering.

Victoria: I love that your answer to ‘how do we start to move from a codependent experience, from emotional outsourcing, to interdependence’ starts with getting quiet, with meditation, with watering self-compassion. Meditation has always been a part of my work and my journey, and what's been helpful.

And when something intense has happened in our collective life, or we've gone through something, you go sit and silently meditate with your eyes open, looking at everything and nothing in the entire galaxy, in the universe, but also nothing, and be in the perennial silence of cosmic activity.

And I go put my big sound-canceling headphones on, music, and dance. I move. For this animal to regulate, it’s movement-based. It is somatic. We're putting was doing somatic practice; meditation is somatic practice. It's bringing your attention… You’re carrying your love back to the soma, the body, the breath.

Billey: It might look like I'm not doing anything, but I'm doing everything.

Victoria: It’s just wicked funny that you're like, “I'm going to sit quietly,” and I'm like, “Turn the music on.”

Billey: That's a really good point. Because some folks… Meditation is not for everyone.

Victoria: There’s a whole show about it. But anyway…

Billey: Okay, good.

Victoria: Yeah, it's not for everyone. You’ve got to find the thing that's for you.

Billey: What pulled you out of it, my love?

Victoria: Oh, yeah. Somatics, coming back to the body. At Oberlin, in the 90s, I studied somatic movement and contact improv, and all these pathways of embodiment; the ebbs and flow of life, right? By the time I was in that lousy marriage, I was just so profoundly disconnected from myself. I had been living in functional freeze for so long at that point, chasing all the things one chases.

And in western medicine, which is so not a good fit for my spirit and my soul and my person, and all the meow-meow-meow, that working with somatic therapists, like SCP’s, Somatic Experiencing Practitioners, like myself, to come back to the body. That's what saved me, was coming back to a truly embodied sense of self that allowed me to say, “Oh, I'm not putting up with this anymore.”

Billey: Yeah, it's interesting. Coming back to the body, that's what meditation did for me. So, it's whatever it takes to get back to the body. I also hiked a ton of mountains. I hiked a lot of mountains.

Victoria: Yeah, so you had movement and stillness, just in different ways.

Billey: Yeah. So, whatever it takes, y'all, just get in that body. Or maybe sit on a cushion, dance, hike a mountain. Get in touch with yourself.

Victoria: And sorry, just about getting back to our roots. Aren't you supposed to say “yinz”?

Billey: Oh, shoot. I'm sorry.

Victoria: Do you want to… We're not going to rerecord it. But do you want to readdress the good people and show your Pittsburgh pride?

Billey: Yinz don’t know. Oh my god.

Victoria: Wait, what’s that thing that protects you from the rain?

Billey: A bumpershoot. I only “warsh” my clothes on “Mondys”.

Victoria: Wow. Pittsburgh! Steelers in the house. A beer?

Billey: No, a “bear”. A “bear”; we can have a beer with the “Stillers”. Downtown. Oh my gosh, I'm bright red.

Victoria: Good times.

Billey: It's interesting. I think I got in the habit of saying “y'all” ‘cuz it's more inclusive. But also I think more people know it.

Victoria: It’s niche. People are like, “Say what?” When I say, “bubblah.” That's what you drink “watah” from, when “youze” at school? We say “youze”; When youze at school, you drink watah from a bubblah.

Billey: How about that kind of sandwich that has different kinds of salamis.

Victoria: A sub.

Billey: It’s not a hoagie?

Victoria: No. What? Get outta hea. Get out of here with a hoagie, no. Where do they say hoagie? It’s very Philly.

Billey: Right here in Western PA.

Victoria: Oh, okay, no, that's a sub. And then a milkshake of course is a “cabinet”

Billey: Of course.

Victoria” Of course, obviously. Oh, little roadie. What are you going to do? I mean, I think Pittsburgh plus Rhode Island is a match made in heaven.

Billey: Oh, I agree.

Victoria: Okay, great. Thank you for coming on my show and being the true love of my life.

Billey: Oh, my goodness. Thank you for having me on your show. And thank you for being the true love of my life.

Victoria: I love when you blush. It is so cute. You little cute-cute. Alright, well, good people who like having Billey on the show, let me know. We'll keep bringing her back. ‘Cuz she's pretty rad.

Billey: It was a pleasure to be here today. Thank you.

Victoria: Thank you, my sweet, sweet.

Thank you so much for joining us, my love. That was such a delight. It is always just such a blast when Billey comes on the show. We are both people who think a lot, obviously, about psychology and philosophy and spirituality. And it's just so fun to come do it on the show, because we do it all day long in our kitchen. So, it's nice to share it with youze. Thank you so much for joining us. It has been quite the pleasure.

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And please, give us a 5-star rating and review. It really helps for other people to find the show when they search for the word “codependency” or “people pleasing”. The more ratings and reviews we have, the more likely the show is to come up. I have been so privileged and so lucky to have so much education and to get to know all this cool psychology stuff, so I really want to share it. So, help me in that mission. I appreciate you.

Beautiful. Alright, my darlings, let's do what we do. Gentle hand on your heart, should you feel so moved. Remember, you are safe, you are held you are loved. And when one of us heals, we help heal the world. Be well, my beauty, I'll talk to you soon.

Thank you for listening to this episode of Feminist Wellness. If you want to learn more all about somatics, what the heck that word means, and why it matters for your life, head on over to for a free webinar all about it. Have a beautiful day, my darling, and I'll see you next week. Ciao.

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Victoria Albina Breathwork Meditation Facilitator

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