Ep #182: Using Magic for Healing, Connection, and Making Heart-Centered Decisions with Sarah Gottesdiener

This is Feminist Wellness, and I’m your host, Nurse Practitioner, Functional Medicine Expert, and life coach, Victoria Albina. I’ll show you how to get unstuck, drop the anxiety, perfectionism, and codependency so you can live from your beautiful heart. Welcome my love, let’s get started.

Victoria Albina: Hello, hello, my love. I hope this finds you doing so well. This week, I am delighted to share a conversation I recently had with Sarah, of the Moonbeaming Podcast. She is a phenomenal witch, a phenomenal coach. She is just phenomenal. This conversation was so much fun, and I'm really excited to share it with you all. So, without further ado, Sarah. Hello. Hello, Sarah. So delighted to have you here.

Sarah Gottesdiener:  Hi, Victoria. It's so nice to be back with you.

Victoria: Yeah, it's so lovely. This is our second chat in just a little minute, so yeah, super fun. We can continue the wonderful conversation we had on your phenomenal show.

Sarah:  Oh, yes, nervous system stuff and healing trauma, and listening to your intuition and boundaries, and all that stuff we talked about. It was such an amazing conversation. I love getting to talk with folks who are as passionate and as interested in all the things, as I am.

Victoria: All the things. Yeah. So, I wanted to start out by asking you to define what witch means to you?

Sarah: That's such a good question. I've been feeling not super pulled to that identity right now. But I think that there's a lot of ways we can look at the word “witch.” We can obviously look at the word “witch” as a practitioner. Just like you are a writer, because you write. Or, you are a podcaster because you are podcasting. You are a witch when you are a practitioner of magic.

And magic, obviously, can be defined in any number of ways. One definition I like is to turn the ethereal into the material. That's one way that I really like. Another is the art of changing consciousness at will. Which is another really good… I think it was Starhawk or maybe Doreen Valiente, who said that, don't quote me on that. But it's about working with energy.

It's about collaborating with the world in a way that we understand, that we are in connection with; we are not separated. We understand that there are many things that we cannot see that produce effects, and that influence us and our trajectories. What we can be in relationship with, because witchcraft is inherently relational. It's basically the antidote for capitalism and white supremacy.

Yeah, so I think being a witch is definitely a way of looking at the world. It's a lifestyle, I think. And we also know that if we're looking at it through the eyes of dominant culture, which is our, very often, marginalized people, they're often people with unseen power. People who are both intuitive and also people who are outsiders, marginalized, or others who have some kind of resource that the dominant class wants.

So, we know that was, if anyone's read Caliban and the Witch, a beautiful book about what was going on in Europe as we were losing the commons. You know, it's very usual for folks to accuse people who had land, people who owned things to be witches, or to be consorting with the devil.

Last but not least, I have to say this, because it's been on my mind. There is this history, at least in the west, of the conflation of witches and Jewish people; because I’m Jewish. There has been this conflation... You can even look at the witch, in the Wizard of Oz, with her hat and her hook nose. There has been this conflation with anyone who isn't Christian, really, and being a witch. So, that's my little, very long synopsis. Sorry, I really need the five-sentence zippy, little explanation for that.

Victoria: Oh, yeah. No, I love all the details you gave. So, thank you. You did pique my interest when you said that witch is not something you're identifying with as much now. I'm curious about that.

Sarah: Yeah, I mean, it's really not... It's complicated. I think that it's strange to see your culture sold back to you. And there's been a bit of a spiritual and witchcraft Renaissance I would say, revival, happening. And, it's both incredible and amazing, and it can sometimes feel a little bit surreal. So, it's like a mixed, it's kind of a mixed bag.

I also think that there will always be the assumptions and projections that we grapple with, when we take on an identity or label. I think that my own personal process of understanding that many folks are operating in a very binaristic way of thinking, and so conflating witches with people who are, say, anti-science, or who don't have a strong foundation in reality. I think there's magical thinking, and I think there's magical thinking. And, those are both two different things.

So, just sort of grappling with how to expand the definition of what language is. Because language is always evolving, and it's always growing, and it's always going to be lacking. And, it's always going to be gesturing towards. It's the embodiment of the thing, that was a little bit disrupted for me. But now, as I'm speaking to you, still feels fine.

Victoria: There's something magical about talking it out, right?

Sarah: Have you had similar things? I don't know, like the word feminist or coach, or sort of certain things that you do?

Victoria: Yeah, well, even the word witch. Instagram is constantly trying to sell me, you know, moon necklaces, and crystals. I got an ad the other day for a shirt that said, “witch please,” and I was like, “Really? Come on, is this what we're doing?”

Sarah: This is how capitalism understands connection…

Victoria: Commodification.

Sarah: Exactly. Capitalism doesn't know how to be with something that it can't buy, or sell, or brand. And I think that on one hand, there's something beautiful about that, if it wasn't so disturbing. Like, if the crystal wasn't mined by six-year-olds in another country, you know, making $1 or $2 a day. I think that we have to think a lot about what our practices can be, both within and outside of commodification.

Victoria: Absolutely. Yeah, even to that point, you know, the most basic tenet for me, about a witch identity, is a deep connection with the earth. And that you don't need, you know, the $500 chalice, right? Like, you don't need any stuff. You need a full moon and the earth, maybe a nice leaf, and some fire, some water; air’s provided. So yeah, I totally get it. And it is wild to see, you know, the hashtag of witch trending.

Sarah: I think it's great. It's like, on the one hand I think it's great, and it can be an opening. But I also think about, I think about this a lot, people who maybe live in a rural area, or are not exposed to different belief systems, and different ways of thinking.

That's why I think representation is great, whether it be for Queer people; or for Black people, or for Brown people or people who are disabled, you know, wherever we are lacking representation. When you grow up not seeing that, it's so affirming, and it's so useful. And it can be a beautiful mirror and affirmation, and opening to get to explore whatever it is you're interested in, or get that affirmation.

And also, for me, I'm like; Okay, well, if we're selling witchcraft, if we're thinking about the identity of a witch, can that translate into reproductive rights for all? How can that translate into change for us? Because I think that issue with commodification, is that it ends there.

People buy the “Witch please,” shirt, which like, hey, I'm here for that. I sell t-shirts with things on them. I never sold a shirt that says ‘witch’ on it but anyhow, yeah, I have sold a poster that says ‘witch’ on it. I used to sell one of those.

I kind of stopped doing that actually, because I didn't feel in alignment. I don't do things for money, so when I don't feel completely ‘yes’ with something, I have to stop. And so, I've stopped doing a lot of that. but I don't think that's necessarily bad, it just felt too ambivalent for me to continue with.

Anyway. Like yes, you can you can buy the “Witch please” shirt, that's great. And also, what are you going to do with the privilege? For me, any spiritual practice cannot stop with the individual. Because witchcraft is relational, I understand that I am in a relationship with all of those around me. I understand in an intersectional construction of the world, and that is what witchcraft is, as well. And that is, I think, what a lot of spiritual practices are about, as well.

Victoria: Right. I would agree. What's coming to mind is how land acknowledgments are getting trendy. I was at an event not that long ago, in a community that's not politicized, that doesn't think about life through a feminist lens, sort of, if I may paint with that broad brush.

But they did a land acknowledgement that just rang so gross and hollow. It just felt like; okay, we're supposed to be doing this thing, so we can get like woke credit and like get the woke cookie. It didn't feel like it was part of a deeper work. It's like you just say the name of the tribe; you know nothing about them. You don't know their history; you don't know their present.

Because it also postulates that these tribes are past tense. Right? And that's so profoundly problematic. And, I think is in this same vein of like, what's, what's the deeper work here? Are we just following the latest trend? Or, are we invested in change writ large?

Sarah: Yes. And I think for me, I share this with my students, whenever I'm doing any kind of, I'm using the term loosely, but spiritual work; whether that be an energetic cleanse that I'm facilitating, or a meditation, or a Witch 101 class, whatever that may be. Yes, I acknowledge the indigenous people whose land this is.

I also give money to… There's a nonprofit near me, that is a Tonga led nonprofit, which gives money to land stewardship and land conservation. And, they also will teach their youth about land conservation and land stewardship.

I think any White person who has the means, and who is in a relationship with land, and is profiting from their relationship with land, which is all of us, needs to do something to care for that land. And that could look like a beach cleanup. That could look like growing native plants. That could look like a plant exchange, and so on and so forth.

But I think it also has to be in support of land back. It has to be in support of reparations. We have to have some kind of reparative process infused into our larger life setup. We need to get out of this power over hoarding resources, which is so colonialist, and we have to get into a sharing power, power with; how am I going to redistribute my resources, once I feel like I have enough, or once I am able to accept my privilege?

I think that's where I sometimes witness both, in myself and with other folks, quite a bit of challenge; quite a bit of resistance, quite a bit of ambivalence, quite a bit of uncomfortability.

Victoria: Right. Two things are coming to mind: one, trauma around money, and scarcity. So, we can we can tap in there. And the second thing I want to offer as well, I love that you shared some free, accessible, no cost options for folks to honor the land and be good stewards of the land. That they are privileged to live on and learning about the people whose land you live on is such a basic one, right?

So, here in New York, let's google and not pay, right? Like I went on the Brooklyn Public Library and I found a good book about people whose land I am so privileged to live on. And yes, I also have the privilege of time and internet access.

There's complexity there, but I think most of us who are taking the time to listen to a podcast can also find a book and learn more, and not just make it a rote exercise. Again, and getting the word cookie. Which doesn't really help that. The thing is not doing what you think it is.

And meanwhile, it is important for cis folks to say their pronouns, because it creates space, it creates acknowledgment, it creates awareness. And so, saying a land acknowledgement does some of that. But to your point, I don't think it's doing enough.

Sarah: I think we have trauma around money. I think White people have vast amounts of trauma around money in different ways, in their own ways. I think that because we've been raised with such scarcity, the way that capitalism is practiced in the United States is a scarcity model. So, we are indoctrinated with scarcity.

Even in this wound, that I see so often and acknowledge in myself, of never being enough; never feeling like I'm enough, not feeling like when I'm… then I'll be worthy, or whatever. And, of course, obviously, that extends to money, for sure.

I also think that, another thing I’ve witnessed, especially in White, straight cis women is a fear of doing it “wrong,” and of being bad. Because of the carceral system that we live in, where we are not embraced, we are not held accountable in a kind way. Accountability, to me, always feels kinder than punishing. And, I think that there's a fear of saying the wrong thing, doing it “wrong,” being called out, and also just not wanting to spread harm.

So then, there's that like trauma freeze response of; well, I'm not going to do anything. Because if I don't do anything, I'm not going to do anything wrong. And then, I won't be bad, and I won't cause harm. So, I think it's so complex, and it's very much dependent on the person in the situation.

But I think that the other part is, just being able… And, this is like where your work comes in, and this is why I'm so obsessed with nervous system healing. We have to be able to sit with uncomfortable sensations and feelings, and we have to be able to stay, as much as possible, in our window of tolerance when we are engaging in loaded, tender situations, complex experiences, and in uncomfortable processes. And also, in the unknown, which is Witchcraft 101. You’ve got to lean into the void, baby. Like, that's where change happens.

I think that because we don't have that basic education, you know, in the public-school systems... I didn't even learn about the Trail of Tears in my public-school systems, how am I going to learn about my vagal nerve? Like, how am I going to learn about when I'm in fawn response? Like, how am I going to be able to connect my body with my whiteness; with my internalized racism, unconscious biases, my nervous systems responses to all of that? You know, I mean, it's a lot.

And then, and it's not normalized; it's not talked about. We're so lucky to be living in a time where it is more and more, but generally, you really have to seek this kind of information and education out.

Victoria: Yeah, for sure, for sure. And I think it's so great that podcast shows, like both of ours, that are spreading this information to the good people, so they can spread it to their people. And can show up, like you said, to all the conversations of life, with more ease and more capacity to return to ventral vagal. And to know where the edge of their window is, right.

And so, Sarah used the correct term, right window of tolerance. That's what it's called in the literature. I like to say either ‘window of capacity’; where's my capacity to stay with myself? Or, a term I learned from Jane Clapp, who's a phenomenal somatics teacher, ‘window of bodily dignity’. How beautiful is that?

Yeah, so where's the edge of, where I can be present with myself in ventral vagal? Feel safe, social connected, I’ve got a little foot on the brake and a little foot on the gas, I'm regulating the input into the machine, into the little motor. And when is it like; whoa, I just revved it way too fast, or I slam the brake and you know, bonked my head? Right? And, those are those edges.

Sarah: And, not having judgment if you're feeling overwhelmed. Like understanding; okay, well, I'm writing a little bit overwhelmed. I’m a little flooded right now. Can we maybe shelve this conversation until tomorrow? I need to think about some things. I'm gonna log out.

And tend to ourselves, because for me too, I think that in, the so-called wellness industry, I think that there's this emphasis on the end goal and on “being healed”. And for me, as someone who is highly sensitive and who has a sensitive nervous system, for me, the goal is never to be regulated all the time.

Victoria: That's not possible for anyone, right?

Sarah: The goal, for me is, to be embodied enough to understand when I am dysregulated. To not be cruel to myself. To hold compassion for myself and to enact the tools that I know that work for me, and that only comes from trial and response and through practice. And, you know, not reading a book, not listening to a podcast.

It happens through practice and it happens when I'm dysregulated. I’m feeling great, you know, when I'm in… I’m going to use window of capacity, that's so much less blah.

Victoria: Well, you know my work, right? Folks managing codependent, perfectionist, and people-pleasing thinking, part and parcel of that, is tolerating a whole bunch of crap. And growing up tolerating crap, being in all of our adult relationships, and tolerating. Often, really being treated in ways that aren't great. And so, I don't want folks out there tolerating anything. Like do not tolerate, right?

Sarah: That’s so funny. We have there, on the highway, I live in Los Angeles, there's like WCM of tolerance. And every time we pass it, my partner's like, what the F? Museum of Tolerance? He's like, we don't want to just be able to tolerate one another. We want to be in relationship with one another.

Victoria:  In acceptance, compassion, love; not tolerance. Not here for that.

Sarah: I love that. I'm gonna use it. Thank you for that.

Victoria: Oh, my pleasure. Yeah, it's a good one. So, a couple things that you said really sparked a lot for me. One was about the wellness industry's obsession with interoception. So, the looking inward and saying, what's happening in my body? What's that feeling? Oh, I’ve got a little twinge in my neck? Is it you know, is it my mom issues? And like turning every sensation into something to pathologize? Right.

And, it's not what I teach. It's not what I believe. I think interoception is incredibly… So, the looking inward, the getting present to sensation in our bodies, this is the definition of interoception, getting present with our feelings and our sensations and their connection. But we can get into such a spin.

And, it just feels so… A, number one, from a science point of view, when we in focus on interoception, and not exteroception; connection with the world outside of us. That's where we get sort of neurotically over-analytical. It can get into a really problematic relationship with our own sense of self. And, we step out of connection and relationship with others when we go from not being in connection with self, to an almost obsessive connection with self.

And I get it, Instagram’s® like a little blip, right? It's like a little card on your phone that says, look within, feel your feelings, and you're like, okay, in order to be hashtag healed, right? And like, hashtag evolved, I need to just focus on that.

But I think it really can lead us astray. And again, to your point, whether it's from a witchy point of view, or a feminist point of view, or whatever other point of view, connection, for humans as pack animals is, is absolutely everything.

Sarah: When does it careen into avoidance? When does it become so extreme, it is perhaps another facet of narcissism? Or, the “I'm not enough. I’m not enough. Okay, how do I get to be enough?” I need this powder; I need this pill.

And then, that was the last bit, which kind of brings us back to the commodification thing is, when is it a distraction vis-à-vis the patriarchy? And, you know, like, if wellness isn't liberatory and doesn't help others, who is it for?

Victoria: Line’s somebody's pocket somewhere?

Sarah: I mean, it's a huge, it's like a billion-billion-billion-dollar industry. And some of it is fine. And some of it I agree with, and some of it I don't agree with, and I think it’s problematic, and I'm saying that generously.

Victoria: Right, and these are themes we've talked about here on Feminist Wellness of, you know, how we can use overthinking as a buffer, as an avoidance of life and the deeper work. Yeah, we both got our hands up. Hello, amen right here.

Recently I did a show about how regret can be a form of buffering, right? So, if we look back on the past, and we're like; I just regret that I did that. I wish I hadn't said that. And we spin in that, we're not staying present to the feelings now. Right? We're spinning in that self-flagellation, instead of looking; what's up, what's the sensation in my body? Right? Digging a little deeper.

And so, too all the like, self-care things, the bubble bath, the creams, the etc. So too, can really be buffering against doing the deeper work because they become that the showpieces, right? It's like virtue signaling. That's so funny. That just hit me. It's like virtue signaling. It's like, wellness signaling, right?

I've got the perfect Lululemon outfit and the crystal necklace and the things that let the world outside me know that I'm part of this path. I'm part of this group of people. It's a from that desire to be in-group. Right? Oh, you said belonging. I heard the longing. That's interesting. Both.

Sarah: Belonging is the longing. The longing is for belonging. Connection, love, acceptance, all of that stuff. This is what I'm always grappling with, in my own life and my own practice and what I share and what I don't share, tools are neutral. Just like money. Just like this bottle of water. Just like whatever, lemons, whatever it is. A book, a word, a language, a practice, astrology, witchcraft, meditation, although, again, I think a lot of these things are great. But anyway, it's a tool. It's neutral.

But how are we using the tool? Are we using it to spread fear? Are we using it as a distraction? Are we using it as a control mechanism? This happens a lot in witchcraft, where, you know, a lot of people are drawn to witchcraft because they feel like they don't have any control. And they don't have any autonomy in their own lives. I certainly was, I was like; Oh, wait, I can have autonomy? I can create something larger than myself?

Victoria: I can be powerful, belong. Yeah.

Sarah: I can feel better. I can look forward. There are these unseen forces that maybe want to collaborate with me, and so on and so forth. And I think, again, it can kind of careen sometimes, into an extreme that isn't useful, that isn't helpful. Whenever you're using magic to control something, I always will check-in lightly with folks, and have them ask; could this spell have been a phone call? You know, could this this ritual be a conversation you need to have with your housemate?

Victoria: Direct communication.

Sarah: Do you really need to banish them, or maybe you just need to ask them to stop eating your lunches. Like, you just need to put your name on your Tupperware™.

Victoria: Oh, that's hilarious. Could you just put your name on your Tupperware? Do you have to cast a spell about it?

Sarah: You know, there's that. And I think that can be for absolutely anything.

Victoria: I mean, there's a way that segues back to like, the hashtag self-care conversation of like; do you need the crystal infused whatever bath salts? Or, do you need to set a boundary in your life, so that you don't need the hashtag self-care to run away from your life?

Sarah: Mm-hmm. And sometimes it's both, you know, like, sometimes you need to take a bath with some rose quartz and some salt. Get more rest, calm your nervous system, take some time. And then maybe, you need to turn off your notifications on your work email after 6p.m. Both/and.

Victoria: I’m here for both/and. I just, you know, it's worth checking yourself. Are you using the self-care in lieu of doing thought work, and breath work, and somatic practices, and doing the real, real?

I mean, and that said, I'm a huge fan of conscious distraction, which is a vital nervous system tool that we've talked about here before. Which is when you say, my nervous system is flooded. I'm in sympathetic. I've done all the things to get back to ventral vegas, and it's just not working. I'm turning on Netflix while in the bath, while eating a frozen pizza. I'm doing all of those things, at the same time, and consciously choosing it. But I think that's the point that I'm getting to, is that intentionality.

Sarah: Mm, yeah. One of the philosophies or practices, that's at the core of my teaching, is utilizing the lunar phases. But it's lunar phases as metaphor for what season of life you're in. So, I think before we ever move into an endeavor or a chapter in our lives, we have to think about the season of life we're in.

So, if we're in a waning moon period, that's a time of rest; that's a time of reflection, that's a time of turning inward. Maybe you don't have the capacity to go to the protest; or do any activist work outside of paying the bills, taking care of your kid, making sure that you're okay.

And then, at other times, you have more capacity. You might be in a waxing period of your life where, guess what? The boundaries are working; the bubble bath is working, the Brightwork is working, you know, your window is getting larger, and you have more capacity.

And, we always have to then work in those little micro-phases into anything. In terms of, okay, I went pretty hard these last three or four days, I'm going to take a rest, I'm going to get that extra hour of sleep, I'm going to curl up with a book, I'm going to take a walk around the park, whatever it is.

Like we're animals, and we're always cycling, so we have to be really cognizant of that. We were really taught by industrialization and the patriarchy, and colonialism and all of these other harmful systems, that we’re supposed to just be on or off. And hopefully on, with emphasis on ‘on’. Right?

And, that is one of the biggest lies I think we've all been sold and internalized. And, it has the largest, for me, amount of cognitive dissonance because even the sun takes a break. You know, there's time to rest. There's winter or periods of dormancy everywhere on this planet. We are meant to rest, recoup. We are not meant to be productive steadily. No one is, no animal is, no plant is.

And so, we have to be cognizant of that, where if we are pushing ourselves, because of shoulds, or regret, or we're outside of our window, whatever it is, we have to listen to that, we have to listen to our body. And, we have to take stock of where we are, in the season of life we're in.

Victoria: I love that. And what comes to mind from that, is how we approach our healing work, how we approach thought work, how we approach the work of creating change in our own lives. And, doing personal growth work.

Folks often will start this work and be really into it, like do all the things because it's novel and brains love things that are novel and exciting. And you're getting all those little dopamine surges, you're probably getting a little oxytocin, a little endorphin, you're feeling great.

And then, waxing waning, right? Things feel less novel, and the self-doubt creeps in. And, that's when I find people get really harsh with themselves; what's wrong with me that I can't do this? I was so good at it. Why can I commit?

And, that's when we bring in the reminder, like you just shared, that; you're a mammal on a big old rock, and you do get to give yourself time for integration. And I think, that's what is so often missing, is that people think they need to just endlessly do the things and not integrate the learning.

Sarah: 100% There's that, whatever you want to call it, beginner's luck. Every witch has this memory of that spell they did, they were three months in and they were like; wait, I did an abundance spell and I got a check in the mail from the IRS? Like, everyone has that sort of; oh my gosh, holy moly, this works! You know, whatever. Whether it's your articulating activating system, or that, you know, that spell that just was amazing. Honestly, I don't really care. It could, again, both/and.

And also, I also like to remind folks that often, healing and change, especially in the beginning, one; feels like one step forward two steps back. Two; a lot of the resistance to change is because we are afraid of loss. There is a lot of grief underneath that. And, there's a lot of unknown because we're going to have to change certain relationships, we're going to have to change our lifestyle. We're going to have to set boundaries, we're going to have to say goodbye to certain relationships.

And especially for those of us who have a history of trauma, the body can often read any change, any change, even if it's a great change, with trauma, with threat, with danger. So, we want to be really careful around that, as well, as we are proceeding.

And, we want to kind of go just outside, I always say, our sphere of influence. Just outside our belief, you know, just outside. If we did two minutes of meditation, maybe next week, we want to try three.

I also think that in Western culture, there is an obsession with feeling good. Like, wanting it to feel good. And, similar to three-minute morning meditation, where “you don't do a good job”; your mind wanders, and you're like thinking about this podcast interview you have to do, or whatever it is. That's not the point.

You know, I think that when we are going to invest in our healing, I think it's really important to frame why we're doing it. And, I also really love this idea, that I've been utilizing in my own life, which is I think we have to look for symptoms, not necessarily results. So, symptoms of the changes we've implemented. So, for example, I could say that I am starting a strength training program, because I want to lift 200 pounds or something. But sure, okay, great. Goals are great. We love a goal.

But if we're looking for symptoms, i.e.: Oh, now I can lift that heavy box. Oh, now I have more energy. Oh, I don't get as tired at work. Like, looking for symptoms. If I have a meditation practice: Oh, I feel calmer now. Oh, like, I feel a little clearer. Because I think we often don't notice the small, almost imperceptible, enhancements that a healing practice is giving us, until like, we stop doing it.

Victoria: Totally. It's so funny. You know, I'm a nurse practitioner. And for folks in medicine, symptoms are like negative, bad things. So, my brain was like; wait, what? We look for symptoms? But you meant symptoms of growth. I was making funny faces at you. Ah, I'm confused by how this is negative; it feels pretty good. I get your point.

Yeah, in my work, we talk about kitten steps. Because I think taking a baby size… Baby's feet’s are very big, right? Like that's too much steps to take. That's too much. We go right down to a newborn kitten size step, right? I try to keep it cute around here.

And, we really focus on a minimum baseline; what is the tiniest thing that I can do and commit to? Not for the getting done of the thing, because that's not the point when you're working on a minimum baseline. It's about building self-trust. And, codependency, and capitalism and white settler colonialism, all take us out of self-trust. It's part and parcel of the operation of these systems of oppression, right? If we trusted ourselves, would they last?

Sarah: And the really beautiful thing, I talk a lot about energetic baselines. You know, like; what's your energetic baseline? on many levels. Because I think a lot about energetic patterns. I do a lot of energy work. But once we've raised our minimum, once we've raised the bar, most people don't lower the bar again.

If I'm raising the bar, in terms of treatment from others, normally, once I have raised that bar, where I don't want to be treated in a certain way, I don't want to be called names or whatever it may be, I'm not gonna go back there. You know?

Victoria: But I will say that we do have different systems of relating with different people. I could hear someone listening, being like; Oh, I would never let my partner talk to me that way. But then they go home and see their family-of-origin, and they're like; Ah, sure.

Sarah: Well, and as I was saying, we have to also think about trauma, and we have to think about all of those layers. I just mean in general, once you've gotten into a rhythm in your life, once you're like; oh, wait a minute, I've had two months of fitful hours of sleep. You know that there's that minimum.

You're like; oh, okay, yes. All right. Maybe I had fitful sleep, maybe I had 6 hours last night. Do you want to go back you do that minimum? That's more of what I mean, is like normalizing. I think trauma survivors, I'm only going to speak for myself, trauma survivors really can normalize quite a bit.

Victoria: Yep, a whole lot of garbage.

Sarah: And also, we can normalize… I, me. I want to normalize all the good. I want to normalize beauty and abundance. Because I think that's the other issue, I see a lot with folks I work with, lack of belief or this fear that once we drop the guard, once we exhale, once we soften the belly, you know, that hyper vigilance that kept us safe, that defense that helped us get away. Once we drop that, it might come back. And so, there's a lot of retraining of; you can feel better, you can experience more abundance, you can experience more connection. And you don't have to hold your breath. You don't have to wait for the other shoe to drop.

Victoria: Yeah, totally. I hear this around, like with my clients, and we're talking about accepting a partner, right? And I talk a lot about how we need to accept and unconditionally love our partners; it is different from condoning. But we need to find the way to unconditionally love them. So, we can decide from there, if this is the relationship that serves us or not.

But as long as we're in judgment of them, for not being who we think they should be, we can't make a loving heart-centered decision for our own lives. Yeah, right on. Oh, my goodness, this is such a delightful conversation. We are getting close to time, and I want to just make sure to honor the listener. What else would you want to make sure that folks hear from you today?

Sarah: I think we covered a good amount. You know, if folks want to hear more from me, they can subscribe to my podcast. It is called Moonbeaming. And they can also sign up for my newsletter, which you can get through my website. You can google me, or it's modernwomenprojects.com.

Victoria: Right on, thank you so much. Thank you for your time, your wisdom, your brilliance. This was really very delightful. And we should do it again sometime.

Sarah: Thank you so much. It's a pleasure. I'm so grateful to be connected to you and get to have these conversations.

Victoria: Thank you. Thank you, my love. Thank you for listening in. I hope you enjoyed this conversation. Sarah is such a dreamboat, and it was so fun to talk with her.

If you are enjoying the show, if you are learning so much from these teachings that I share each week, I would be super-duper grateful if you would head on over to Apple Podcasts® or wherever you get your shows, if you can give it a five-star review and leave a written review. That's the most important part.

It's this weird thing with their algorithm. The more reviews a show has, the more often it shows up in search, meaning, the more ears it gets into. This is a free resource I create with so much love. And, my greatest dream and wish, is that it gets into all the ears that could benefit from hearing it.

So, please take a moment to rate it. Give it five stars write a written review. It can be quick; you don't have to overthink it. You don't have to go into perfectionism about it. I see you. Just right what's real, what's on your heart.

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Alright, let’s do what we do. A gentle hand on your heart, should you feel so moved. And remember, you are safe. You are held. You are loved. And, when one of us heals, we help heal the world. Be well, my beauty. I’ll talk to you soon.

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