Listener Q&A Volume 1: Boundaries and Interdependence

For this listener Q&A series, I will dive into boundaries, interdependence, kindness, and housework. 

The first question comes from Megan in Colorado. She writes, 

“Hi Vic, I love the podcast and it’s been so helpful. I’m writing in because I need your help. I’m new to setting boundaries and it feels scary. And I don’t want to offend or upset anyone by telling them what they can or can’t do, and it hurts so much when I try to set boundaries and then I feel guilty and other people never respect my boundaries. Help please.”

Alright, well Megan, thank you so much for sending this.

Okay, let’s start by pulling this one apart because there are several different thoughts and assumptions here that we can work with.

So I’m hearing these all as separate thoughts that you can apply the thought work protocol to and start to take a look at. 

So, I’m new to setting boundaries. It feels scary. 

I don’t want to offend or upset anyone. The premise that setting boundaries is “telling them what they can or can’t do,” feeling guilt about setting boundaries, and finally, “people never respect my boundaries.”

So let’s zoom out here. A thing that brains – and I do mean all of our brains, that brains love to do is to group all of these thoughts and beliefs together and smush them together like they’re one thing. And that as a whole, this conglomeration of thoughts means something.

I’m guessing that you’re making this whole thing mean that you shouldn’t set boundaries because your brain is set to people pleasing. 

That’s the place on the dial it’s set to habitually. And what makes thought work so amazing is that it gives us a protocol for questioning our assumptions, our beliefs, our thoughts, because we can understand that our human brains believe what they’re told over and over and over again.

So if you’re colorblind and you can’t clearly see red, green, or blue light, you might say that the sky is blue because you’ve been told that over and over again. Though you might not even pause to ask yourself, do I experience it that way?

So what we do is we pause, and we look at each thought separately so that we can then ask ourselves with gentleness and love, what feeling arises in our bodies when we think that thought. What feeling does that thought create, understanding we take action based on that feeling because that’s what drives us as human mammals, knowing that we then create a result in our own lives, based on the action we take or don’t take.

So let’s start with this part. I don’t want to offend or upset anyone. 

This thought is predicated on believing that your actions can create thoughts and feelings for other people, but in reality, they can’t, and they don’t. Each of us has our own lens through which we see the world. 

We will each respond or react to setting boundaries from our own thoughts like you respond or react from yours.

So if someone else thinks you setting boundaries means you don’t love me, then they’re going to feel unloved if you set boundaries. 

If they think you setting boundaries is mean, then they might feel angry or upset when you set boundaries. But that comes from them, babe. That is their own brain having that thought.

Now, I have come to love it when someone sets boundaries. I think it’s the most loving, kind, amazing thing to do because a clear boundary tells me clearly what is and is not okay for this human, and it’s such a gift. So through my lens, a boundary is freaking awesome.

Set one and I’ll likely say, “Thank you so much for telling me what works and doesn’t work for you because I can then make choices that honor me, the other person, and our relationship.” I love a good boundary.

For example, a friend of mine recently let me know that she’s not currently available for processing emotions in situations with me. 

She’s dealing with her own stuff and that’s what she’s doing. So totally my inner child is like, ouch, and started to take it personally, started to make it about her and about me, and so I stepped into soothe my inner child and to let her know that adult me is here for her and I reparented her in that moment.

And we got into the right relationship with each other. 

I would so much rather have my friend tell me than not to, and then have her not answer the phone, or not text me back, or to spill my guts and tell her everything and then have her say like, oh okay, I’m really sorry but I got to go.

I’d so much rather the direct communication. 

All of this to say you can’t control if someone is upset or offended by your boundary and it’s not your job to manage that for them. 

Only they get to decide how they are going to react or respond.

And you get to clearly say if you do X, I will do y. And you then get to release it, to let other adults take care of themselves and their adult minds however they need to. And if someone thinks less of you for setting a boundary, that’s 110% on them.

It’s not your business and it’s not yours to even think twice about because you simply cannot manage anyone else’s mind for them. That’s not how it works because science. And when we grow up with codependent and people-pleasing thinking being modeled for us, it sure can come to feel like it’s our job, and that’s a false belief.

It’s a false thought. 

It’s never your job to manage anyone else’s thoughts or feelings for them.

The sooner you drop that heavy weight of believing that it is your job, or that it’s even possible, the more free you’ll be to attend to yourself deeply.

So let’s take a look at this next part of what you wrote. 

The premise that setting boundaries is “telling them what they can or can’t do.” 

I’ll start by saying that’s not how I recommend setting boundaries. It’s not what I’m thinking. I’m never telling anyone what they can or can’t do.

I keep my boundaries focused on me because that’s the only person who I can control and manage.

And goodness knows, managing my own mind is enough for me, thank you very much. I am no longer out here trying to manage anyone else’s mind. 

So I state boundaries as if you do X, I will do Y. Plain and simple.

My focus is what I will do in response to someone else. It’s not ever telling them what they should do or how they should be or how they should act. It’s clearly stating what I will do if they continue to behave in a way that doesn’t work for me.

The focus is on me. Now, as a human with habitually codependent thinking, which I learned in childhood as a survival mechanism, it has historically felt so uncomfortable to put my focus on me. 

The good news is that the more I both consciously decide to prioritize myself and use the thought work protocol to see and focus on the results I create for me, while also holding that taking care of me and setting clear and simple and emotion-free boundaries is also good for my relationships, the easier it gets to sit with that discomfort.

And these days, it just doesn’t feel that uncomfortable. It’s easier and easier for my mind, body, spirit, inner children, nervous system to believe that the discomfort of clearly saying if you do X, I’ll do Y is so worthwhile.

It actually feels more uncomfortable not to set a clean boundary because I know what a gift it has been in my life when the people I love come at me with clean, clear boundaries without guilt or shame or BS.

So some examples here. If you do X, I’ll do Y. If you bring up my weight, I will change the topic of conversation. Just letting you know. If we are having a conversation or an argument and you raise your voice at me, I will leave the room. I will not be yelled at.

Listen, if you fight on behalf of prejudicial or discriminatory opinions, I will no longer be spending time with you. That’s my boundary. So you get to make a choice. 

That’s the thing, that’s what setting boundaries does. It gives you and the other person the freedom and the space to make a choice.

If the other person doesn’t want to meet your boundary, cool cool cool. There’s a consequence. I will change the topic, I will leave the room, I won’t hang out with you. I will take care of me because it’s my job to do so. And if you want to hang out with me, splendid, magnificent, amazing, incredible animal that I am, here’s what it looks like.

Finally, Megan, you wrote about the issue of folks not respecting your boundaries. 

Well, there are a few things here to note. One, if you’re using the format, if you do X, I’ll do Y, then the only person who can violate or disregard that boundary is essentially you, by not upholding your side of the bargain that you set forth to take care of you.

And this isn’t about me blaming you and being like you didn’t do it. It’s the opposite. It’s about empowering you to take ownership and responsibility. 

If you say you’re going to hang up the phone if someone crosses a particular line, then you get to do it.

Or consciously decide if you’re not going to and ask yourself if you like your reason why. That’s when you get to make sure that you’re not in people pleasing or codependency, trying to keep them happy with you, making that more important than you being happy with you.

The second thing I’ll say is that if someone consistently does disrespect your boundary, meaning they continue to do the X that you’ve clearly stated means you will do Y, well then my goodness, that is just more information, isn’t it? And you get to pause before you make their choice mean anything about you or about them as a human.

And you get to recognize and realize that this person is showing you very clearly how they operate in the world and how they have and will continue to treat you. And you get to heed the words of the magnificent Dr. Maya Angelou who said, when someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time. And if it’s the 473 time that someone has disrespected this boundary, you can also choose to believe them now.

Thanks for writing in, Megan. 

Alright, our second question. 

“My question is this. What’s the difference between interdependence and codependence? I’m afraid that if I stop being codependent, I’ll become this terrible asshole who isn’t nice or a good friend or partner. Can you help me think through this? XO, your nerdiest fan.”

So there are two things here. One, what’s the difference between interdependence and codependence? And two, this fear that not being codependent will make you a jerk face.

In short, codependence is when our identities and emotional states get all tied up with what we perceive another person is feeling or thinking.

It’s marked by a lack of balance, struggles for power and control, a feeling like one person is taking on all the responsibility for the other person’s emotional state, for their wellness, for their life, which can lead to a lot of anxiety, guilt, blame, resentment when you’re trying to manage someone else’s emotional state for them, which is an impossible task, to say the least.

In this framework, there’s no autonomy or healthy individuality. And so we seek to be perfect, and thus, uncritiqueable. To people please because we believe that if others aren’t happy with us, it’s our fault and our problem. So we try to manage everything for everyone, chronically putting ourselves, our wants, our needs last.

Some common codependent thoughts are:

• “I want a partner who treats me X, Y, Z way,” versus focusing first on giving that to ourselves. 
• I just want everyone to be happy. 
• I feel guilty when I take care of myself or set a boundary.
• I’m so exhausted from taking care of other people, I have no time for myself.

Meanwhile, interdependence is marked by mutual enrichment, born of self-love and self-trust. 

I trust me to show up for me and I trust you to show up for me the way you can and want to when I ask. Not the way my perfectionist fantasy demands that you do.

In an interdependent relationship, both partners show up in their fullest autonomy, with the ability to function fully independently. And there’s a distinction between the needs of both partners and all needs are equally respected as valid, whether the other person is available to meet those needs or not.

In an interdependent relationship, both partners make an effort to support the other one’s emotional and physical needs without demanding or controlling the other, taking full ownership of their own thoughts, feelings, actions, and results.

So codependency sounds like I take care of you and get mad when you don’t read my mind and take care of me the way I think you should without my even telling you because I spend my life attempting to stay one step ahead of everyone else’s needs and wants and feelings and everyone else should be doing the same and doing it perfectly, or I will be resentful. And while I won’t tell you about it, you will know about it. And if you ask, I may deny it.

So if that’s what codependency says, then what interdependence says is I take care of me, you take care of you, and we meet in the middle with mutual respect and care, trusting that both of us are taking care of ourselves so we can honestly, openly, and vulnerably share our wants, needs, and desires, knowing that we can take care of ourselves and can depend on one another to show up as we are able.

The energy is so different there and I will tell you, shifting from that codependent thinking to interdependent thinking has been nothing short of mind-blowing and life-changing for me.

So the second part of your question, “will not being codependent, not enacting all the people pleasing, all the perfectionism, all the doing for others what they can do for themselves, will that make you a jerk face?”

Well, I actually think that putting other people’s feelings above your own is the less loving choice, because then you’re not attending to you and giving yourself what you need. 

And that’s often accompanied by this story that other people need to fill your cup. But since no one else can really do it for you, they’re always going to F up, kind of by definition.

So the internal story often goes, I’ll only be happy when my partner, my best friend, my parent, my boss, when whomever does X, Y, and also definitely Z differently, better, when they do it my way. So your mind is constantly telling you that they need to change. They need to change so I can be happy.

And this leads us to try to change the other person, try to force a solution, which is not only impossible, it’s not kind. It’s not loving, it’s not helpful, it’s not respectful. 

Honoring that other people are the way they are, are who they are, and coming into deep and radical acceptance around that is the most loving choice there is.

Meanwhile and simultaneously, being open and honest about what we need, what we want is a cornerstone quality of healthy interdependence. And is something we hide in codependence because we don’t think we’re allowed to have needs or wants and oh my goodness, are we resentful about it, as though it was the other person’s fault, which it’s not.

In codependent thinking, we don’t know what we want or need and don’t set loving boundaries, which sets ourselves and the other person up for failure. 

When you continue to put other people ahead of yourself, you’re not actually being kind or loving.

All humans need to recharge and reset or you’re going to resent. And that just sucks for everyone. Dropping the story that you can or need to be everything for everyone allows you to do the same and not try to make anyone else your everything or think they need to do everything for you.

And in that, you allow you to take care of you and to show up for all of your relationships, your activism, your work, your life, with a full emotional cup, knowing you can and will fill it for yourself. Not expecting anyone else to do it for you, and then being pissed off that they can’t.

I hope that’s landing for you, my darling. 

Okay, so our third and final question for today. 

“My boyfriend never does any of the housework. I do all the cooking, cleaning, grocery shopping, laundry, dog care, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I keep telling him that he needs to help, and it just doesn’t happen. I’m so freaking exhausted from doing everything and I just want him to put his dishes in the sink. Thanks, Beatrice.”

Alright, well, thank you for this Beatrice. This is such a common one for those of us with the thought habits we love to talk about here on Feminist Wellness. Codependency, people pleasing, and perfectionism. And each of those thought habits is likely playing a part here for you.

And before I even dive in, that last part kind of made me laugh. “I just want him to put his dishes in the sink.” Doesn’t sound like with four et cetera’s that all you want him to do, so just noting that. It sounds like there’s a lot more there.

So if we were coaching live like we do every week in my six-month program, I would start by getting clarity on the statement that you “do everything.” Now, I start there because we’re all about looking at our habitual thoughts and so it’s super vital to question our own stories.

Again, they don’t come from nowhere. 

Our minds decided that things are a certain way, often things were modeled for us, like we may have had a parent who told the same story, who was in this sort of martyr archetype and told the story I do everything, I do everything, I do everything.

And so that’s the lens we use to see the world through, it’s the lens we’ve always used until we learn the skill to stop and to question it. I think of this thought work as one of the things that cleans our proverbial mental glasses so we can see the world clearly and in a new way.

And so we do that by asking, is this a thought or a fact? What we’re actually asking, is this story entirely true? 

And I start there, not because I distrust you or think you’re actively trying to lie here, but because it’s important to.

So not knowing the details of your experience with your boyfriend, but knowing what often happens in the minds of folks with codependent thought habits is that we can easily take on that martyr story, one in which we feel like we’re doing absolutely everything and by comparison, everyone else is doing absolutely nothing.

So you get to start by asking yourself, what are you really doing and what is your boyfriend really doing? 

Not with this like, tit for tat, I did this so you should do kind of energy, which is a hallmark of codependent thinking, but rather, pause and run a check. Like a reality check.

Now if you do that and you realize that you are actually in fact doing most of the housework or all of the housework, you get to pause, my darling, and to look at your own choices. And yes, we’ll get to him soon enough, but notice, when our focus is on other people, our focus is on other people.

And so a huge part of this work of healing codependency, perfectionism, people pleasing is turning that spotlight onto ourselves, to see our own internal ecosystem, our own internal landscape. 

So my love, I will invite you to ask yourself, why are you choosing to do most of the chores?

And to ask yourself that with love and kindness, getting curious. What’s your driver, baby? What’s your reason why? 

• Is it to prove that you’re lovable? 
• Is it to uphold that martyr or saint or victim story that we sure do love to roll around in?
• Is it to try to make others see your value and worth in concrete ways? In number of dishes done, number of floors mopped, number of laundry cycles run? 
• Is it ammunition for the protection of your perfectionist part so that when someone says you didn’t do something or didn’t do it perfectly you can fire back with the litany of things you did do as though that would absolve you or protect your tenderness?
• Is it to make you invaluable and needed so you don’t get abandoned? 
• Is it to attempt to control your space while your mind is unmanaged? 
• Is it a buffer against feeling your feelings about this relationship or anything else? 
• Is it to prove to yourself that you are perfect in this one way, that you keep a clean house?
• Is it because you are socialized as a woman and so you think you have to keep things a certain way because that’s what women are supposed to do and you’ve never questioned that story? 
• Is it an unconscious attempt to cover up for things you perceive to be weaknesses or flaws, things you may feel shame about, about yourself, or things you’ve done in the past? Thoughts you’ve had?
• Is it an attempt to keep people from thinking negative things about you like that you don’t have a perfectly clean oven and thus you’re not a person worthy of love and care? 

My beauty, I could go on. A huge part of coaching is asking questions that get your brain thinking. And the point is this; you get to ask yourself your own reason why for the things you do.

And then you get to ask yourself if you like that reason. And if you like it, great, keep on keeping on. And if you don’t, great, you can use the thought work protocol to change your thinking so you can live with intention. It starts with getting real and honest and vulnerable with yourself before you start looking at what others are or aren’t doing.

And once you’ve done that, you can work the thought work protocol around it to ask yourself what feelings these thoughts are creating for you and what the actions and results in your own life are. 

And once you get clear on that, you can decide which of these thoughts you want to keep, understanding that they were co-created in your childhood likely, or perhaps in young adulthood as protective mechanisms, an attempt to try to keep you from experiencing pain or discomfort or being judged or criticized.

And my love, you don’t need to hold on to any of these thoughts. 

They don’t actually protect you. Instead, they keep you stuck in that old story that you have to constantly prove your worth, which you never do. You are absolutely perfect, lovable, and worthy just as you are.

My darling, you were born that way. You’ve done this work. You’ve evaluated, you’ve taken a hard look at what the what is here, you’ve asked yourself if this is a thought or a fact. I do everything, and yeah, you’ve gotten clear around it.

So let’s say you have recognized that yes, you are doing 98% of the housework and you’ve done your diving into it, and you understand your reasons why. And you’ve gone to your partner, to your boyfriend here you said and ask for mutuality, for there to be a fair distribution of household labor.

And your boyfriend either still isn’t doing what he said he would or wouldn’t agree to do half the work or gives you an excuse, gets defensive, is not available for this conversation, isn’t available to step into mutuality here, then you get to decide if this is a relationship you want to stay in or not.

If you’re not getting met with interdependence and mutuality, if you’re not getting met by a partner who wants to show up for you and your relationship, baby, you get to decide to leave. That’s perfectly okay. You always get to decide that for you.

Don’t stay because you fear you won’t find anyone else or because you’re scared to be alone, or because you think you can change him, or that if you wish hard enough, he’ll change, because that’s just not real. I mean, sure people change, that’s what we do here. We work to change our thoughts and behavior that no longer serve us, but you actively hit play on this podcast, you subscribed to this podcast because you want to.

So there has to be willingness, there has to be that desire to make change. 

And if there isn’t, then there isn’t. So you get to check in and see if that’s a real fact or if it’s just a thought in your mind and move forward accordingly, understanding all the stories in your head about staying, about going, about his fault, his doing, his not doing. Just get really real with it, my baby.

And on that note, you get to release that wish, that desire for him to want to do anything in the world. That desire for him to want to do anything for you or to make you happy. Because it’s a losing game and it’s creating pain and suffering for you, my beauty.

He wants to do what he wants to do, and he may decide to show up in a new way, to meet you and support you, or he may not. 

But wanting him to want something is not staying on your side of the street. 

If you want to be with someone who wants to do something you want them to do, then that sounds like being with some other dude and not the one you’re with.

So you get to drop the wishing and get realistic about the human in front of you so you can accept him and unconditionally love him for exactly who he is. Practice that, practice cleaning up your side of the street, giving yourself what you want and need, and you can then, from there, take action, to stay or go on your own terms, accepting him for who he has shown you that he is.

And that person may be someone with core values that are different from yours. These are the questions you get to ask, my beauty. 

Thank you for taking the time to read Feminist Wellness. I’m excited to be here and to help you take back your health!

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